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<html><head><title>Questions</title></head>
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<p>Posted by <b><!--poster-->Mark Rosenfelder</b>
on <!--date-->1:30 12/5/01
<p>In reply to: <a href="271.html">Questions</a> posted by Philip Newton</b> on 11:01 12/5/01
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<p>
<p>(quotations from Philip are in italics... sorry, too much work to
use blockquote. :)
<p><i>1. How are streets named in Verdurian?</i>
<p><b>Prosia Hovard</b>, <b>prosia Iloshora, prosúlia Anguia</b>, etc., with the name in the nominative; note also <b>lagana Rafát, desi Zhevuran</b>. This is the same pattern as <b>Sherë Corona</b> in the grammar; I took it from French (<i>Assurance "Mondass"; Lycée Rodin).
<p></i><b>Bolyáshe</b> is really a typo; it's due to the fact that the word for 'street' was once stolen directly from Russian-- <i>prospekt</i>.
<p>As for the genitives, they're simply an alternative, just as in French you can have <i>Rue Monge</i> or <i>Rue des Écoles</i>.
<p><i>2. How does Verdurian handle the case of possession where the possessors are many and they each possess one thing?
<p></i>
<p>Don't take this as a reprimand, but for questions like this it's often wise to consult the Verdurian version of the Zeir story. I check it myself, after the grammar and the dictionary, since I hate to answer a question and then find that I've considered the same situation elsewhere and chosen differently!
<p>Anyway, there's a nice example there, which follows the English:
<p><b>Otrî dhunî voyakî ya izvlazhnu belacem zië.
<br></b>The other two mercenaries had drawn their swords.
<p>3. <i>Is it correct to use the accusative in </i>zet duisre hipco soa scafa<i> "He headed down the dock"? Heading somewhere involved for me more turning in place rather than motion anywhere, but it does kind of imply motion.
<p></i>
<p>It depends on the intent, I think. Normally <i>duisir, </i>like "head (for)", does imply motion-- we'd take the sentence as meaning that Durm did in fact walk, not just orient himself-- so your rendering is correct. But if we were just focussing on direction, I think the dative would be correct: <i>Duisum nanán</i>, we're headed north.
<p>4. <i>Is it correct to translate (the) hundreds of xxx as </i>(soî) shatemî xxxei<i>? That is, can </i>shatem<i> be treated like a noun, forming a regular plural?
<p></i>
<p>Yes, that's fine.
<p><i>5. What verb tenses are used with </i>fayir<i> when the necessity is not in the present but, for example, in the past (as in this story)?
<p></i>
<p>I'd write <b>fayre dy matune</b>, since both verbs refer to the same past time. (Verdurian, unlike Greek or Esperanto, doesn't use 'relative' tenses in indirect speech or subordinate clauses: <b>Mizhe dy läzne Deshtain</b>, he said he was going to Deshtai.
<p><i>Actually, a construction such ilun fayre matuan dhun sokolië would also have made sense to me...</i>
<p>I like the dative constructions, which also match the causative (<b>Ilun shesne matuan dhun sokolië</b>, something made him capture a pair of falcons). Think of it as an optional transformation: <b>Faye dy</b> (X-nom V-finite O) --> <b>Faye</b> X-dat V-infinitive O.
<p>6. <i>How to express 'you have to capture them wild'? I chose </i>faye dy tu cam matue dharimi<i>, using the adjective in the appropriate form (masculine accusative plural) after the verb. </i>
<p><b>Dharimi</b> is correct. Reminds me of a pet peeve of mine: pedants who insist on writing "I feel badly", as if only 'to be' is allowed to have an adjective complement.
<p><i>7. How is </i>isu<i> used?
<p></i>
<p><i>a. Does it conjugate? Or does it simply take a noun in the appropriate case and number after it? For example, would Do we have enough bread? be </i>Tenom isu lon?<i> and Do we have enough flowers? be </i>Tenom isu zhortem?<i>
<p></i>
<p>Yes. An example from the dictionary: <b>Cha, e isu mushî shuchî. </b><i>Man, that's a lot of pigs.
<p></i>Though on reflection, for your examples, I'd use the partitive, as in French: <b>Tenom isu yonei? Tenom isu zhortië?</b>
<p><i>b. What about with adjectives? I guessed it's the second -- </i>isu zol.<i>
<p></i>
<p>That's correct.
<p><i>c. And what about the construction <adjective> enough to xxx? Is that formed with </i>dy<i> + indicative?
<p></i>
<p>From the Zeir story:
<p><b>Fue rhomuán isu irzovec soa takna.</b> It was nonetheless enough to win the battle.<i>
<p></i>
<p>But I don't think your formulation is wrong-- just a bit wordy. ("It was strong enough that it could carry his weight" is correct in English too, but can be pared down.)
<p><i>8. What construction is used with tro? For example, how would you translate This box is too heavy to lift?
<p></i>
<p>From the Grammar:
<p><b>Pirodonul lië eshele tro pidhë ab kion zet alir.
<br></b>His inheritance was too small to get by on.
<p>Based on this, I'm going to say we should use a preposition, as in French. The best preposition would be <b>and</b>; thus: <b>Ci-cista e tro seshuë and sevan</b>.
<p>9. <i>Is it correct to translate they were useless to him as </i>ilun fueu agbütî<i> -- that is, with the dative?
<p></i>
<p>Yes. (Hmm, does it help you or confuse you to natively speak a language that also has a dative case?)
<p><i>10. Do </i>eto<i> and </i>tot<i> have a plural? ... I really wanted a plural pronoun here to refer to "those" falcons. But </i>kio<i> also doesn't have a plural, which also feels weird to me, so I suppose that's just the way it is with inanimate objects. Is the translation of those as </i>tot<i> here correct?
<p></i>
<p>Yes. I understand the feeling of oddness; but just think of a Spanish speaker, used to <i>quien</i> and <i>quienes</i>, who has to make do with English "who"!
<p>11. <i>Finally, a question that's not connected to the translation but which came to me: how does Verdurian form negative commands? ... If Verdurian does it like French, then I would expect something like </i>Rho velenei uverä esë!<i>
<p></i>
<p>Right, it's just <b>rho</b>, as you have it here.
<p><i>And what about the abbreviated form, often used for example by mothers to tell their children to stop doing whatever they're at?</i>
<p>Hmm, how do you do this in French? Just <i>Non</i>?
<p>For Verdurian, I'm going to suggest <b>Deshi!</b> 'Stop!' The need for something quick, and the frequent use with young children will, I think, override the usual reasons for avoiding the classical imperative.
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