|
Server : Apache/2.4.62 System : FreeBSD fbsdweb2.web.rcn.net 14.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 14.1-RELEASE releng/14.1-n267679-10e31f0946d8 GENERIC amd64 User : www ( 80) PHP Version : 8.3.8 Disable Function : NONE Directory : /domains/markrose/board/messages/ |
Upload File : |
<html><head><title>Almea as an allegory - part II</title></head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<center><h1><!--title-->Almea as an allegory - part II
</h1></center>
<hr size=7 width=75>
<p>Posted by <b><!--poster-->Panu Petteri Höglund</b>
on <!--date-->9:15 9/17/01
<p>In reply to: (none)
<!-- PUT MESSAGE HERE -->
<p>
If I may take up this thread again: to start with, I rather enjoyed
Irgend's reading of the ktuvoks as childhood bullies. I did have some
such bullies in childhood, too.
Today I at last found a copy of "The Mote.." at Akateeminen Kirjakauppa,
so maybe I'll soon be able to understand you better. :) But I think
Irgend has a point about the Ilii as an utopia: coming to think of it,
as Shippey has pointed out in his "Road to Middle-earth", Tolkien's
elves are "Ilian-type" ideal Man, while orcs are an uninspired,
impoverished parody on Man. The point is, both species are in a way
"past redemption": the Orcs are outside Man's moral scale, because they
are by definition evil; and the Elves are outside Man's moral scale,
because they don't need redemption or afterlife. The point is, a
successful Utopian alternative and an altogether evil monster are both
outside what is human, and are therefore only possible among non-human
creatures. I guess this is what you mean when you say, concerning
Asimov's Gaia, that fundamental changes in human nature would be
necessary to make it work, i.e. Man should be transformed into an Iliu
or an elf. And this is a frightening perspective - in fact, it is the
very same metaphysically frightening perspective which makes the thought
of an after-life as frightening as the thought of death as the End -
because such a transformation, as a personal experience, is simply
unimaginable. So, this frightening possibility - being sinless and not
needing to struggle between alternatives at every moral or ethical
crossroads - can only be endured if it only concerns a non-human
creature - an iliu or a Tolkienian elf - whose consciousness, morals and
"soul" are designed for an eternal (elves) or a sinless (ilii) life.
<hr><i>Mark responds:
<p>I think you're quite right about both elves and orcs being "outside Man's moral scale"-- and it may be a flaw in Tolkien's work. (It also bugs me that the elves are rather like nobles, and the orcs rather like (an Oxford don's impression of) laborers.)
<p>Interesting that you find sinlessness "frightening".
In Tolkien's worldview, it's the state that humans were <b>supposed</b> to
be in-- sinfulness is a corruption we all go through. I find it a
fascinating concept... especially if we attempt to divorce it from
our experiences with people in our world who <b>claim</b> to be above
sin. Sanctimoniousness is really just another form of sin; reflecting
on this, I decided that the iliu must not have any concept of "morality" at all... what would they need it for?
</i>
<hr><center>
<i>To make a reply, or see replies, see <a href="../">the index page</a>.</i>
</center>
<hr>
<!-- For index page:
<li><a href="messages/182.html">Almea as an allegory - part II</a> -
<b>Panu Petteri Höglund</b>
<i>9:15 9/17/01</i>
-->
</body></html>