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<center><h1><!--title-->Compass directions and rivers
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<p>Posted by <b><!--poster-->Philip Newton</b>
on <!--date-->2:37 9/15/01
<p>In reply to: <a href="168.html">Compass directions</a> posted by Mark Rosenfelder</b> on 00:22 9/14/01
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<p>Hi Mark, you wrote in response to me:</p>
<blockquote><blockquote><p>For example, how would one translate <em>10
</em>cemisî<em> south of Pelym</em>?</p></blockquote>
<p>I would write <b>azh Pelymán erán po dec
cemisen</b>.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ah, thanks. Having looked up <strong>azh</strong> in the dictionary,
I can see the precedent for such use.</p>
<blockquote><p>The one grammatical oddity is that the direction in a
region's name is declined as a noun. That is, it doesn't agree with the
toponym in gender.</p></blockquote>
<p>So <em>east of South Viminia</em> would be <strong>azh
Erán</strong>(masc. dat.)<strong> Vimínian</strong>(fem.
dat.)<strong> sarán</strong>? And <em>I hate South Viminia</em>,
<strong>disai Er</strong>(masc. acc.)<strong>
Vimíniam</strong>(fem. acc.)?</p>
<p>I have another question. How would <em>the River Elbe</em> be
translated into Verdurian? For my recent posting in Cadhinor, I guessed
the equivalent of <strong>soa Elbe selë</strong>, with both
<strong>Elbe</strong> and <strong>selë</strong> in the feminine
singular nominative, and when I declined it, I declined both words
equally (treating <strong>Elbe</strong> as a feminine noun due to its
<strong>-e</strong> ending): <strong>azh soan Elben selen
erán</strong>, <em>south of the(fem. dat.) Elbe(fem. dat.)
river(fem. dat.)</em>.</p>
<p>What would one say in Verdurian, however? In German, <em>river</em>
is nearly always left off, and only the name of the river is used (and
takes the feminine article except for very large rivers such as the
Nile, the Amazon, or the Mississippi, which are masculine). In English,
<em>river</em> is optional, but when present, usually comes before the
name (<em>boating on the (River) Nile</em>). In Greek, the word for
<em>river</em> usually comes after the name of the river: <em>ο
Έλμπε
ποταμός</em> (<em>o Élbe
potamós</em>), but I'm not sure how the name of the river
declines in different cases.
<p>I could imagine any of the folllowing:</p>
<ul>
<li>Only the name of the river, with gender determined from the ending:
<strong>so (gliny) Nil, soa (gliny) Elbe, soa (gliny) Mississippi; soei
(glinii) Nilei, soe (glinye) Elbei, soe (glinye) Mississippë;
soán (glinín) Nilán, soan (glinyan) Elben, soan
(glinyan) Mississippin</strong></li>
<li>Only the name of the river (changing according to its grammatical
ending), with definiate article and adjectives having feminine gender
due to an implicit feminine <strong>selë</strong>: <strong>soa
(gliny) Nil, soa (gliny) Elbe, soa (gliny) Eärdur, soa (gliny)
Shayu; soe (glinye) Nilei, soe (glinye) Elbei, soe (glinye)
Eärdurei, soe (glinye) Shayui; soan (glinyan) Nilán, soan
(glinyan) Elben, soan (glinyan) Eärdurán, soan (glinyan)
Shayun</strong></li>
<li><strong>selë</strong> explicitly stated before or after the
name of the river (in lower case?), with the name of the river in the
nominative and changing according to its grammatical ending:
<strong>soa selë Nil, soa selë Elbe, soa selë Svetla,
soa selë Shayu; soe selëi Nilei, soe selëi Elbei, soe
selëi Svetle, soe selëi Shayui; soan selen Nilán, soan
selen Elben, soan selen Svetlan, soan (glinyan?) selen Shayun</strong>
or <strong>soa Nil selë, soa Elbe selë, soa Svetla selë,
soa Shayu selë; soe Nilei selëi, soe Elbei selëi, soe
Svetle selëi, soe Shayui selëi; soan Nilán selen, soan
Elben selen, soan Svetlan selen, soan (glinyan? glinín?) Shayun
selen</strong></li>
<li><strong>selë</strong> with the name of the river in the
genitive case (<em>the river of the Nile</em>, as it were): <strong>soa
selë Nilei, soa selë Svetle, soa selë Shayui; soe
selëi Nilei, soe selëi Svetle, soa selëi Shayui; soan
selen Nilei, soan selen Svetle, soan selen Shayui</strong></li>
<li><strong>selë</strong> together with the name of the river,
which does not change: <strong>soa selë Svetla, soa selë
Shayu; soe selëi Svetla, soe selëi Shayu; soan selen Svetla,
soan selen Shayu</strong></li>
</ul>
<p>Which would you go for? Or maybe none of the above, as with my
guesses at compass directions?</p>
<p>Oh -- and are foreign common and proper nouns declined at all
(according to their ending), or are they invariant? Would it perhaps be
<strong>soan Nil</strong> and <strong>soan Elbe</strong> (foreign,
invariant) but <strong>soan Shayun</strong> and <strong>soan
Svetlan</strong> (native, change ending)? And <strong>lädai
Hamburg</strong> but <strong>lädai Pelymán</strong>?</p>
<p>And if foreign nouns that have not been naturalised are invariant,
are they all considered masculine, or all feminine, or maybe either
according to the ending the word happens to have? Could it be, perhaps,
<strong>Tenao dhuni</strong>(masc. pl. acc.)<strong>
<em>chip</em></strong> and <strong>Lelnai dhunem</strong>(fem. pl.
acc.)<strong> <em>muvi</em></strong>? (And yes, I know about
<strong>dhëska</strong> and <strong>bezhecî</strong>.)</p>
<p>Cheers,<br>Philip.</p>
--
Philip Newton <[email protected]>
<hr><i>Mark responds:
<p>
Your phrases about Viminia are correct. (And don't worry... nobody is very fond of south Viminia.)
<p>For the rivers... this is the sort of question I'm always tempted to
answer ad hoc, and then I discover from some existing material that I faced
it before and decided the other way. :) So I did search through my map
folder for relevant things, and found that I normally use the pattern
<geographical term> <name>. Thus: <b>Zëi Mishicama</b> Mishicama ocean; <b>Endi Kellide</b> Kellyde Forest; <b>Müsa Mazhtana</b> City Cape. And in fact there's a town in Krasnaya, not unfortunately on one of the
maps on the web, called <b>Selë Fäbula</b>, the River Fäbula.
<p>There are also a few places with names like <b>Silva Icëlanië</b> '
forest of the icëlani', <b>Tas Verdúrë</b> 'Bay of Verduria'.
<p>What about articles? I find that in "Subrel i aksubrel" the hero rides <b>co
soan Svetlan</b> 'along the Svetla'; but in the Practical Course, Vyat is
found <b>u Eärdurán</b> 'on Eärdur'. The grammar says that
<b>so</b> is avoided in locative expressions, which I think explains the latter
usage; we might say that the first expression is not a locative but an adverbial of
manner.
<p>That leaves us, I think, with this rule: Either <b>so (gliny) Nil</b> or <b>soa (gliny) selë Nil</b> is correct. <b>So</b> agrees with the name
of the river if <b>selë</b> is not present. Thus: <b>So Eärdur e beluana, ac ditavu soa selä Raum</b>, 'the Eärdur is beautiful, but I prefer the river Rau'. The river name does decline.
<p>For the bare locative, follow the Practical Course: <b>Zhésifo zet tróue u Svetlan</b>. <b>So</b> would tend to return with other prepositions. Note that <b>sur Svetlan</b> would mean, on the surface of the river... a good place for a boat but not a city. :)
<p>Foreign nouns can all be assimilated into Verdurian, and therefore all decline. You choose the declination according to the ending. (For personal names,
Verdurians would manhandle the word in order to get the right gender. Names
in <b>-a</b> can of course be either gender. A name like the Hebrew Avi would be written <b>Avy</b>. I said Barakhinei <b>Benhêk</b> would be Verdurian <b>Benëk</b>, but I think this is wrong-- it should be <b>Benëca</b>.
Spanish Consuelo would probably be turned into <b>Consuela</b>. (I hate when Americans do that!))
<p>(Foreign <b>adjectives</b> sometimes are not assimilable, because they don't fit into any declension. So e.g. <b>zhuzhu</b> 'stoned' is invariant.)
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<b>Philip Newton</b>
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